The line to get in at approx 10:05 a.m.
Missouri Republicans are meeting in Jackson County and St. Louis, today in the state’s complicated GOP caucuses.
Most Missouri counties caucused last weekend, but Jackson County and St. Louis decided to move their caucuses to Saturday. One reason is both communities put on popular St. Patrick’s Day parades.
It turns out that I was supposed to be in that line, pictured above, by 10:00 a.m. sharp, in order to get in. I was on schedule to get there on time, but a pick-up truck cut in front of me, and decided to just putter slowly along near an intersection on the way to the venue, and you guessed it – the green light I should have made turned red. So.
And then there was the unfortunate parking situation. (No spaces left!) Diagonal lines in a parking lot mean no parking except in desperate circumstances, right? Coppers everywhere + me parking in a dicey spot + me with an upset stomach and no bathrooms around = me not sticking around too long.
01:56 PM CST — @TracyWardForKC says: “Now voting on proportional slates out winner take all. This crowd is getting antsy.”
01:55 PM CST — Sounds like all of the campaigns are angling at the moment. No substantive news.
01:35 PM CST — Analysis from a Platte County resident and caucus organizer, Darrel Drumright: Each district has it’s own convention. If you live in the 5th district you would be nominated for delegate to the 5th district convention. If you lived in the 6th district you would vote for delegates to the 6th district convention. They should make a motion to vote on the stage convention delegates first and then divide by district. The caucus today votes for delegates for three different conventions. The 5th district convention, the 6th district convention and the MO state convention. All three send delegates to national.
01:29 PM CST — Some people are so angry that delegates might be divided that they are leaving.
01:21 PM CST — Mark Seitman (sp?) motions to amend rules to divide into 5th and 6th districts instead of voting as county.
01:15 PM CST — Rules Committee now reporting.
01:13 PM CST — All singing God Bless America while waiting for Rules Cmte.
01:08 PM CST — Motion made and passed to suspend the reading of the call to convention to save time.
01:05 PM CST — Munyan elected Secretary, 587 to Finch’s 281. Munyan is a GOP Committeeman and local attorney. Very honorable reputation, and I have met him and heard him speak. Good choice.
UPDATE:
According to Lorien Johnson:
CONFIRMED:
Paul wins majority of delegates in Jackson County, Missouri. Paul 80% Romney 20%!
I could tell that Paulbots had flooded the zone. It was a lost cause.
Who’s the genius who decided Missouri needed to go to a Caucus?
UPDATE II:
Ron Paul supporters dominated in St. Louis, as well.
Linked by Daily Pundit thanks!
Nice Deb 
“You know who gets there two hours early to wait in line that long for these things?” Patriots who are willing to get a ticket, be towed, or crap their pants to do whats right. Sorry you didn’t make the cut but glad to know Santorum, aka candidate for Pope, won’t be getting anything there today
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Thanks for the quotes! I hope the liveblog is of use. To clarify, I was not inside the caucus – I was compiling reports from inside sources. Also, many Paul supporters were turned away at the door at least as late at 9:55am. Everyone was dealing with the same problem.
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“santorum aka the candidate for the pope”
Thanks for revealing where you’re coming from.
Patriots don’t talk like that – religious bigots do.
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Over-represented = organized. Thanks for the compliment!
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I have been talking about this and people think I am nuts. They have been organizing for months. I mean months. They are picking up delegate seats to the national convention all over the country. They are loving the fact that there could be a contested convention, because they will be voting for Paul on a second ballot. So the next time someone says they want a contested (there is a difference between contested and brokered) convention tell them be careful what they wish for.
Another thing to consider, the first day of the convention is for voting on the plank. If Paulites get more than 50% of the delegates we could have a plank that has no mention of life issues or national defense.
The Paul people have been organizing for a long time while the rest of us slept through the process of getting delegates to the convention. Shame on us.
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Re: Platform – Paul and Paul supporters are very strong on pro-life and national defense issues.
Life: Make it a state issue and bar federal oversight; murder is a state offense. That overturns Roe v. Wade immediately, and it massively decreases abortions as almost all states would limit or prohibit. Pass a personhood amendment to the U.S. Constitution and to state constitutions.
National Defense: We want most (I want most, some want all, it depends on the person) of the troops stationed overseas brought home. Cut spending on foreign military actions/bases by bringing most home. Open NEW bases and increase support to existing bases on American soil, particularly at the borders. Use our troops to completely secure our border. Increase funding to defense technology/machinery development and building.
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So why are the people who support Romney, Santorum and Gingrich labelled politely and Paul’s supporters are derisively called “Paulbots”?? Because they got up earlier for their candidate and didn’t let afternoon high tea interfere? Or just because you’re too mean-spirited to find another and more polite label for them?
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I attended the Jackson County caucus today and it was a massive sham. Santorum and Gingrich supporters were disenfranchised through a very poorly designed process that should be scrapped TODAY! To begin with, when the two candidates for chair were asked to come up on stage, the candidate who eventually won the vote paraded on stage with Paul and Romney signs. The other candidate was mature and didn’t flaunt his candidate, whomever it was. The chair is supposed to be fair and even-handed. The clear display of his preferences (remember, the Paul and Romney supporters cut a deal ahead of time) should have disqualified him from being considered.
There also was a very sensible motion to apportion delegates according to the numbers of those supporting each of the candidates, but it was essentially shouted down by the very loud Ron Paul contingent…even though they probably would have ended up with the majority of delegates. In that case, at least all candidates represented would have come away with something for their efforts.
I can tell you that there was a tremendous amount of time and effort put in by those of us supporting Rick Santorum. It was all washed away by a process that in no way mirrors the intent of the voting public as demonstrated in the February 7th primary. The national Republican party and Missouri’s governor share the blame for this fiasco. The party, because it threatened to cut our state’s delegates in half if we had let the February 7th primary results dictate the apportionment of delegates, and the governor for making a political move that prevented us from moving the primary to a later date in order to bow to the national party. What happened today trashes our representative form of government and leaves a lot of people out in the cold. Sounds a lot like some other countries we try to avoid emulating.
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Dave,
Chairs are permitted to be supporters of candidates, and they are almost always openly so. The other candidate for chair was an open Santorum supporter – even without signs. The issue is neutrality once office of Chair is accepted. The Chair today behaved as a neutral entity. He did not vote. He followed Robert’s Rules of Order. When the Santorum and Gingrich groups raised points of order, called for standing votes, etc, they were acknowledged, answered, and standing votes held. There was some confusion at one point regarding voice votes and standing votes. Each time a standing vote was also held after a voice vote, and then the Chair apologized for the confusion and agreed that all votes would be standing for maximum accountability.
The proposed amendment to the rules to assign delegates proportionally was voted upon and it was voted down 531 to 411.
February 7th was not an accurate representation of Missouri. It was a Presidential Preference Primary that was not binding in any way. That was a horrible decision and a waste of $7,000,000. Voter turnout was very low – why bother voting in a glorified straw poll?
I’ve lived in a country, Bolivia, that has extreme election fraud and disenfranchisement. I was a missionary and I saw all too well the horrors of such systems. That was not what happened today.
Today was a standard, legal, Order-abiding caucus that follows the republican form of representation upon which our government is founded. What you desire – proportional representation in line with the Preference Primary – is closer to a democratic system. Not a perfect match, but closer.
As for the dealmaking… Romney and Santorum have been making deals all over the country and all over Missouri. This is hardly news.
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So why are the people who support Romney, Santorum and Gingrich labelled politely and Paul’s supporters are derisively called “Paulbots”??
I thought I had restrained myself, but see that I did use the more derisive term at the end.
Sorry, but Paul supporters have earned their nicknames. Their devotion to Paul is almost cult-like – I would say singular, except we’ve seen it before – with Obama for instance. And too many of them have an overzealous need to evangelize everyone they come into contact with.
I was in line with some other Santorum supporters and we were treated to the incessant pro-Paul ramblings of the guy in front of us because he had some special claim on “the truth” that we lack. He was going on about some pretty insufferable, demonstrably false, conspiracy-theory type stuff.
February 7th was not an accurate representation of Missouri.
The primary on Feb 7 was a much better representation of Missouri than these Caucuses today were. Santorum is a top tier candidate who was surging in the polls at the time. Paul is in last place (single digits in some polls) nationally.
The only way they could win the caucuses today was by out “organizing” the mainstream Republicans who naively thought that the caucuses would attract a fair representation of the Republican voting public. They didn’t, obviously.
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LOL. Gotta love when the Paulians show up and proclaim that no one else is a patriot than themselves.
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Ron Paul’s platform of peace, liberty and sound money IS THE ONLY PLATFORM that is in line with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That’s worth fighting for, showing up early, doing our research on law, and demanding transparency in the face of voter fraud that is being perpetuated against Ron Paul in state after state. If you want to label Paul supporters with names – fine. Propaganda has raised its ugly head everywhere in America. But to protest that you just aren’t treated fairly (instead of rightfully claiming you don’t do the work, the research, want a government for ALL THE PEOPLE and not one that panders to groups with narrow focus, or have the gumption to get ‘er done) that’s your choice. But sadly that is why all of our freedoms continue to be thrown under the bus. That is why you have the government you deserve. Paul supporters want the government all the American People have a Constitutional right to, under law. People who support Ron Paul do it based on a very real understanding that the status quo is killing this country. If you’re part of the status quo and prefer denial over that very clear reality, then you will continue to be disappointed when Ron Paul Patriots stand in the face of overwhelming odds to fight for their rights, along with yours, if when it defies your reason as to why.
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Ali:
I don’t want the status quo any more than you do, but I do want at least fair representation out of the process. Yesterday’s caucus process did not deliver that. I’ll hand it to the Paul folks that they did a good job of researching the process and the rules, but the process is still a mess.
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Ali, who protested that they weren’t treated fairly? The point made by the non Paulites in this thread is that the process was a sham. Mainstream Republicans were out-flanked, plain and simple, but you people don’t represent anything close to a majority of Republicans in Jackson County.
That’s all.
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The simplest solution to those who aren’t happy with the representation resulting from a republican mechanism – a caucus – is to participate. The Paul and Santorum groups were the largest, and Romney’s the third. No one group had 2/3. The Paul supporters had a simple majority, but not 2/3.
The building had a cap of 1,000 people. That was obnoxious and burned attendees from each campaign. The location was a poor choice for the GOP, but the Jackson GOP is typically very inefficient.
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Anon – I appreciate your statement. The processes all over are a mess – the country is a mess – however, we will continue to work diligently and fervently within whatever ‘mess’ there is, to restore the rights of every American citizen to being the most important element of government. And we won’t back down. Join us. Peace. Liberty. Sound Money. ronpaul2012.com
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Life isn’t fair. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The caucus is a private GOP run event and is not a national election. If you showed up, you were able to have a voice and vote. You lost the vote? Sorry, but move along and get them next time. Are we teaching our kids that no matter what, you are, “a winner”? That is not how it works. Stop giving out trophies to everyone. Play to win. Sometimes you lose. Deal.
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The caucus was run fair, simple as that. Every inquiry or disput the Santorum/Newt group had was addressed fairly and put to a vote, they simply did not have the numbers. To all the Santorum people upset with the process, your party did the same thing against Paul in Clay county last week. The Paul group had the majority, but the Santorum and Romney groups teamed up to trump them. It is part of the process. Do not be upset because a person that has differing views from yourself decided to get their early because they were extremely passionate.
And Not-So-Nice Deb, shame on you for your comments against the Paul supporters. I hope you realize that regardless of who wins the Republican presidential primary WILL NOT WIN unless they have the support of the Paul supporters.
Have a nice evening.
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@Anonymous re: religious bigotry. I don’t think she was being a religious bigot. Her sarcasm was because of the atrocity of moral legislation called for by many Santorum supporters. A lot of Paul supporters are devoutly religious – like much of the team that organized the Paul campaign in Jackson County. Patriots loyal to the constitution know It is immoral to use the force of a gun to require someone else to conform to your religious beliefs against their will. THAT is un-American. The rights of ALL individuals are protected under the constitution as long as they don’t do harm to others. An American with equal rights to you that does not conform to or engages in behavior not endorsed by your religion is not doing harm to you. We who love Liberty and the Constitution abhor the big government idea that you can make people more moral through force. It just doesn’t work.
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Let’s not forget that in Clay County Ron Paul had more supporters than both Romney and Santorum, but Santorum and Romney pulled the same deal on us leaving us with nothing. Let’s also not forget that the Santorum campaign approached us with a deal and approached romney with a deal.
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Let’s not forget that the Santorum campaign also approached the Paul and Romney campaigns with deals to shut out the other.
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No, really — the solution is to go back to a Primary instead of a caucus because a Primary will bring out the people. It takes less than five minutes to vote in a primary election verses a caucus that expects people to sacrifice most of their Saturday when they’d rather spend their day off with their families — not at some contentious political deal they don’t even understand. It’s simply a better representation of Missouri Republicans to involve more of them in the voting process – not just the hyper motivated and hyper organized ones.
To tell you the honest truth, I wasn’t looking forward to it, myself, and I’m a political junkie.
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Her sarcasm was because of the atrocity of moral legislation called for by many Santorum supporters. A lot of Paul supporters are devoutly religious – like much of the team that organized the Paul campaign in Jackson County. Patriots loyal to the constitution know It is immoral to use the force of a gun to require someone else to conform to your religious beliefs against their will.
You mind explaining just what in the Sam Hill you’re talking about? This Patriot is a Catholic, and a Santorum supporter and has no earthly idea what you’re talking about, (but suspects it’s a result of ignorance in how Catholics, including Santorum, respect the separation of Church and State.) The media has done a very good job of twisting Santorum’s personal religious beliefs into something that somehow threaten non Catholics.
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Btw – I’m not really interested in hearing how the Caucus went, or any deals that went down – really. Nowhere have I argued that the Caucus was run in an unfair manner. I wasn’t even there, but I’m assuming everything was on the up and up.
I’m saying a Caucus was a very bad idea for Missouri.
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I think the person who was referring to religious bigotry was responding to the exchange earlier in the comments, not something in your post.
As for the caucus, eh. I like caucuses. I like them even when my guys don’t win. They are more essentially republican. The people who are persistent and care the most have the most chance – in a fair, orderly environment – to effect change. Primaries are more democratic. This is a philosophical and, to some degree, a stylistic difference, but caucuses are much more Madisonian in the approach to representation.
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Life isn’t fair. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The caucus is a private GOP run event and is not a national election. If you showed up, you were able to have a voice and vote. You lost the vote? Sorry, but move along and get them next time. Are we teaching our kids that no matter what, you are, “a winner”? That is not how it works. Stop giving out trophies to everyone. Play to win. Sometimes you lose. Deal.
Again with the “fair”…
Since you people keep using that word, yes, a more “fair” representation of Missouri Republicans would be a primary vote where more of them are involved.
A personal pet peeve of mine for at least the last 20 years is the trophies for everyone mentality that has taken hold in the culture. How that even applies in this situation is anyone’s guess.
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I think the person who was referring to religious bigotry was responding to the exchange earlier in the comments, not something in your post.
The very first comment contained the religious bigotry so it wasn’t responding to anything in these comments.
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sorry lady, but if you couldn’t get to an event in your county before 10:15 AM (disregarding your excuse of a man in a pick-up truck in front of you that couldn’t have made a significant impact either way), then you were not dedicated to your cause and your ramblings sound infantile to me. you would see it the same way if you thought like a responsible adult
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“Ali, who protested that they weren’t treated fairly? The point made by the non Paulites in this thread is that the process was a sham.”
wait, so shams are fair and balanced? I’m confused lady. you aren’t contesting the fairness of the event, but you call it a sham. a fair and balanced sham, if I may make a point. sounds like everyone should get a gold star to me….even if they got out of bed late, showed up late, got rejected at the door, and wrote a piece to whine about it. takes a lot of energy to whine, but apparently more energy to wake up on time and make it to a scheduled, important event.
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I was there before 10:15, but whatever. I blame myself for being late. The explanation was not meant to be anything other than what it was –an explanation to how I missed the Caucus.
My point is – (again) a lot of responsible adults were not there – because they didn’t understand how it worked and/or they weren’t as organized or as dedicated as other people. Maybe they are more dedicated to their families – that’s not a bad thing.. As a mother of six, four still at home, I sure wasn’t looking forward to spending half the day there on a beautiful day like Saturday was. And again, I’m a political junkie.
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Yes, I can tell you are confused, and I’m tired of repeating myself. Read through the comments, sheesh.
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The caucus system is the best way for a political party. Only the dedicated, informed, and active people make the effort. In a primary, every moronic, mind-controlled idiot can vote (which is unfortunately a gigantic majority of the people). They will vote for whomever the media and their preacher tell them to vote for. (OK, so the preacher thing still applies to Santorum people – but that’s an anomaly).
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People who didn’t make it to the Caucus were victims of mind control…
“Preachers” tell Santorum voters how to vote…
I see. It’s all beginning t make sense now. You’re nuts.
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Hey guys – if Ron Paul gets in, I sure hope he stops the Bilderberg, illuminati, freemason, Zionist, chemtrail, and poison money plots that are gonna kill us all. He can put Iran on the back-burner while he focuses on what’s really important!
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Oh do stop being so reactionary and dramatic. Anyone who bothers to read Paul’s platform or record knows that the policy focus is on uncompromising fiscal responsibility.
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I know that Ron Paul (and too many of his followers) believe in every kook conspiracy theory out there. Paul is a brilliant man – I’ll give him that. On economic issues, he’s been visionary. But unfortunately, he’s absolutely out of the park nuts on foreign policy, and has a long history of being a conspiracy theory monger. That’s not something we need to have as Commander in Chief in a dangerous world.
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I know he has an uncompromising fiscal record of voting against earmarks while larding bills up with pork for his own district.
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Are we really going to start talking about other Republicans, and their supporters, regarding their supposed conspiracy theories? You sound like CNN circa 1995.
Paul is consistent. He applies the same principles of economics and governance to foreign policy as he does to domestic policy. He is strongest of all four candidates on national defense and secure borders. You disagree with him on his foreign policy – understood.
You cross a line, however, that you accuse “paulbots” of crossing. You get jump on them when your snide provocations work and get a foolish, emotional response from them. You accuse them of fanaticism because they were eager to participate in a caucus and made the necessary sacrifices to learn the process and to be early. The language and tone you use is mocking and derogatory… and when people respond in the normal way – a gut emotional/frustrated response – you jump on them and try to label them as inferior and irrational.
It’s a rhetoric game, and it’s certainly not uncommon. It’s also tacky.
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As a Paul supporter, I arrived late after working until 1 A.m. and not getting to sleep by 2:30. I don’t “blame” anyone for my tardyness but myself. I voted in the primaries, and met only Paul supporters at my voting place. We were shocked to hear the Diebold machine numbers showing him as doing poorly, when we never met any other supporters in front of the voting place. I’ve seen the videos of how these machines ruin elections, and even saw one lady break down into tears. She’d been volunteering for years and had no idea these machines were made to change the votes until she saw it for herself (see youtube). It’s criminal. I prefer the Caucus because it does require politically motivated people to put forth a little effort for their candidate, and the Votes are counted in front of everyone. I ran through the parking lot with a Santorum voter and we both were too late. And, no, I did not try to convince her who to vote for, or explain my Paulbot status. Those who use name calling and labels on others for supporting their candidate need self help books. Friendly debates are the mesh that holds civilization together. Diebold machines, and GOP slander tactics against Ron Paul are what I’d call unfair. Deals? they’re made everyday. And a little info for those of you who dislike Paul supporters. It’s not about Dr. Paul, It’s about his “message”. He wants “we the people” to get involved in politics and save our country!~ ooops, I’ve let that golden secret out haven’t I?
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The earmark issue has been discussed ad nauseum for anyone interested in answers.
Any unused/un-apportioned cash in budgets go straight to the executive branch and its bureaucracies. The money is being taken from the local peoples in the first place. Stuff the bill with as many possible ways to bring the cash back to the people from whom it was taxed and as far away from the executive branch as possible in case the bill cannot be voted down, while working hard to keep the bill from passing in the first place. Fight the bill, Vote against it, and Protect the local community by lessening local damage if the bill can’t be stopped.
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The reason he puts earmarks in the bills is because it is congress duty to allocate the funds after the budget is set. If they don’t, the balance of unallocated funds goes to the executive branch – which is much worse. His earmarks don’t increase spending at all.
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Defending THIS country is not out of this world nuts. What is nuts is undermining Israel by giving hundreds of billions of dollars to Israel’s enemies and telling them what they can and can’t do. Ron Paul was the only member of congress to vocally support Israel’s right to attack the Iraqi missile sites. He supports Israels right to do the same to Iran. They have hundreds of nuclear weapons to defend themselves. Even their prime minister says they don’t need our help and that they want to have control over their own defense. What is nuts is propping up dictators that murder their citizens, then killing them when they won’t do our bidding. Training, funding and providing weapons to al queda is nuts. Taking money from poor people in a rich country and giving it to rich people in poor countries is nuts.
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I don’t have time to sit here and read all the comments, but have read many of them and to those of you who think that what happened on Saturday was a fair, democratic way to elect delegates are totally wrong. Yes, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes you lose because the other team cheats. That is what happened on Saturday. The Ron Paul supporters openly admitted that they had cut a deal with the Romney supporters. They were rude and inappropriate during the caucus. A caucus is no where near a fair representation of the county. It is my hope (and I will be fighting for this) that next year we don’t have a caucus, but instead have a primary that will give a fair representation.
To the Paul and Romney supporters who showed up early, good for you. For the Santorum supporters who were late, shame on you. It was publicized to anyone who was even halfway involved in the campaign that there was a need to be there early. I was in line (with my 7 month old baby) at 7:45. My mom arrived at 8:30 and my sister at 8:45. It was clear there would not be enough seats for everyone who wanted to attend. Not to mention our military and people who had to work Saturday couldn’t vote and people with children would have to PAY to vote. So for those who were simply late or who were uninformed enough to not make it, shame on you. One way or another though, I pray a caucus (aka totally rigged event where our delegates are decided before we even walk in the door) never happens again in Jackson County.
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I guess I have to add Diebold to the list of conspiracy theories.
Is it ever going to be possible to have an election in this country where supporters of the loser don’t believe that voting machines were hacked and the results tampered with?
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P.S. Another GOP tactic is to tell all of you the “young voters are the Paul supporters. Totally false. I’m 53, most of my friends aren’t young either. The Military, including aging veterans like myself, has given Paul more money than ALL the other candidates. This is where I speak my mind about his foreign policy. Don’t believe what your TV tells you. It Lies. especially the news casts. Iraq had WMD? noooo. Iran can build a nuke? They are surrounded by countries with nukes. This country did very well before we became the policemen of the world. Yet, hundreds of our soldiers are committing suicide because they’ve been to Iraq/Afghanistan 3 and 4 times. That’s not right. Our Country is broke. I’m surrounded by foreclosed homes. I almost lost mine. Ron’s foreign policy is like mine. Let other countries deal with their issues, we can be supportive only so far. We have enough troubles here on our own piece of dirt. millions on food stamps, jobs given to other countries. TSA strip searching our children and mothers and fathers. Shouldn’t we be screening people “who come into this country”? Why does someone from Kansas City going to Chicago have to be strip searched? Isn’t that rather invasive of our civil rights? Oh, how quickly we forget those who gave their very lives so we could make up our own minds. btw, a court in Florida has ruled that newspapers and news networks are not held accountable to telling the truth. Don’t believe propaganda. Of everyone running for president, only one is a veteran, married to the same woman for 55 years. Always standing up for “The Constitution”. Maybe we should to.
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That’s not nice Deb. It’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s a fact. get your facts straight. I’ve seen the machine change 3 votes George Washington, and 1 vote for Benedict Arnold to 1 vote George, 3 Arnold. So, Now I’m a conspiracy theorist for sharing true facts? name calling me because I like RP?
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I understand your concerns.
1. You’re right, a caucus is not a democratic method. It is a republican method.
2. The deal between Paul and Romney supporters was a plan B for both groups. If neither had the 2/3 majority to pass a full slate, they would coordinate a compromise slate.
3. The Santorum leaders also pursued the Paul leaders a few weeks ago for a deal.
4. The Gingrich leaders also pursued the Paul leaders a few weeks ago for a deal.
5. The Santorum leaders at the caucus, while voting was taking place, tried to get the Chair (a Paul supporter) to stop the vote in order to make a Paul/Santorum deal. The Paul/Santorum deal would have actually given Paul more delegates than the deal with Romney, but the Chair refused to a) use his position to violate the vote, and b) break the word of the agreement between the Paul and Romney teams.
6. Clay County was a Santorum/Romney deal, and Robert’s Rules of Order were violated. Paul was excluded.
7. Santorum’s official campaign team drafted a letter for the St. Charles County GOP to distribute re: the corrupt caucus. The St. Charles County GOP are on video talking about how they manipulated the caucus to exclude Paul supporters.
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What is nuts is undermining Israel by giving hundreds of billions of dollars to Israel’s enemies and telling them what they can and can’t do. Ron Paul was the only member of congress to vocally support Israel’s right to attack the Iraqi missile sites.
I agree with all that.
But – Ron Paul doesn’t believe that Iran is close to obtaining a nuclear weapon, or is a threat to our own national security.
He seems to think that radical Islam is at war with the West because of something that we did. Everything’s our own fault – which is a complete misreading of the motivations of radical Islam.
Paul is on record saying he wouldn’t have supported WWII because Hitler wasn’t a threat to our national security, for crying out loud.
They guy is scary on national security issues.
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To clarify re: WWII:
The question he was asked was whether he would have invaded Germany if the only reason was Germany’s human rights violations. No Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, no direct threat, no direct provocation. It was a hypothetical asking whether Paul would invade another country because that country was committing crimes against other people.
Paul is the strongest candidate on national defense and secure borders.
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Len, all the polls show Ron Paul not having significant support. He’s in the single digits in some of them, okay? He’s losing in the primaries because he’s getting fewer votes than the other candidates, period.
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My point is this, we live in a democratic republic. We must combine these to have a fair, free country. What happened Saturday was mob rule. The first thousand people to get there had voices. The rest did not. That is no way to run an election. It’s wrong. I also know about all the other deals cut. They were all wrong. The Santorum people vying for a deal were sellouts. Them cutting a deal would have also been wrong. The only “fair” way to do it would have been to either present three slates (one for Paul, one for Santorum, and one for Romney…oh, and I suppose for if you count Gingrich) and do a vote that way or to do a proportional vote. I use quotes around the word, “fair” because even that would not be fair. A fair way to run an election is to give everyone opportunity for voice and vote. A caucus does not.
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Nice posts Lorien.
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And so I asked Congressman Paul: if he were President of the United States during World War II, and as president he knew what we now know about the Holocaust, but the Third Reich presented no threat to the U.S., would he have sent American troops to Nazi Germany purely as a moral imperative to save the Jews?”
And the Congressman answered:
No, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t risk American lives to do that. If someone wants to do that on their own because they want to do that, well, that’s fine, but I wouldn’t do that.
In a follow-up, the author called Eric Dondero who used to be a “former senior aide to Mr. Paul” about his answer:
“He told me numerous times it was not worth it to intervene to save the Jews in World War II,” Dondero said. “I don’t think that’s because he’s an antisemite. It’s because he’s an extreme isolationist and he’s trying to be 100% principled–he doesn’t think there’s any reason to intervene for human rights or any other reason anywhere on the planet.”
http://capitolcommentary.com/2011/12/29/ron-paul-wouldnt-have-sent-in-the-troops-during-wwii-to-stop-the-holocaust/
That is disturbing stuff. If the slaughter of 6 million Jews isn’t reason enough for an intervention, obviously nothing is.
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Deb, your listening to the news again. The polls online have Shown Ron Paul the frontrunner for 6+ months. Don’t believe your TV. Believe what “you see”. Just ONE look at some of the panoramic pictures of hundreds of supporters on my facebook page could enlighten you. Your being lied to Ron Pauls support is scaring the pants off the GOP. but don’t worry, the pictures and videos are all over youtube. I have not seen such support for someone since the Funeral of JFK. But you will not see it on TV. The revolution WILL NOT be televised. . . at first.
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OMG, Len, online polls are meaningless.
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Exactly. That’s the quote I was referring to as well.
Are you in support of invading Sudan to stop Kony’s atrocities against men, women, and children?
Are you in support of invading China to stop their atrocities against men, women, and children?
Draw a line. My line is the U.S. Constitution. I cannot force American lives and cash to police the world. I can voluntarily contribute and assist mercenary efforts to fight the atrocities.
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Fellow Paul supporters – People are going to think of us the way they’ve been taught to think of us. Let’s move on and focus towards lending our voices to people who will debate on the issues.
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Actually, siding with Deb here. Online polls are meaningless. Paul is consistently polling lower than Romney and Santorum in polls among GOP voters.
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You know, AS Ron Paul has stated. It wouldn’t matter what “he” wanted. He wouldn’t go to war UNLESS Congress authorized it. All he says is that it is Congresses job to be the voice of the people. SO, there. We probably would have gone to war in WWII even if Paul was President. Basically he says, it’s not the “One” mans(the President) who should call us to war, but Congress. His reasoning is infallible. I can’t believe all the pop and circumstances surrounding Iran getting a nuke. Let them blow themselves up. We should ALL be concerned about more important things, like all the radioactive fallout from Fukushima that has child mortality rates climbing around the world. You won’t see that on TV, but search for Arnie Gunderson on youtube, and prepare to be worried. He’s a nuclear power expert from Fairwinds here in the USA. “We the people” have much more to worry about than Iran.
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“My point is this, we live in a democratic republic.” please study your country candlelight. We are a constitutional republic. We have never been and will never be, God willing, a democracy. That is what is so ludicrous about us ‘spreading democracy’. Why are we trying to spread a form of government that we ourselves do not have. I have seen too much ignorance on this subject to sit by and let people continue to propagate it. WE ARE A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC! Get it straight. Winston Churchill said ~ “the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter”. Unfortunately, you and some others on this forum are proving his point. AND, your point about the unfairness of the Paul/Romney deal is ludicrous too because you were there and you heard them talk about the deal that Santorum and Romney made in Clay county. You choose to conveniently ignore facts when it helps justify continued ignorance. You guys are losing this discussion and proving RP supporters right. You don’t have a leg to stand on. I move to have stupid comments, including the article above, stricken from the record. When that is done, you two or three anti-Paul people can do some homework and come back and agree with us.
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Obama has already deployed U.S. forces to Uganda, Central African Republic, South Sudan, and Congo to help regional governments in the mission to hunt for Kony. I’m okay with that.
Is there a mass slaughter happening in China that I don’t know about?
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Fellow Paul supporters – People are going to think of us the way they’ve been taught to think of us
You yourselves teach me how to think of you.
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That’s a solid difference between our perspectives. I’m not at all okay with that. As for China, their human rights violations are well-documented.
I am not okay with our government deploying troops across the globe when our country is not directly threatened. That’s a big-government approach that is neither conservative nor constitutional.
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(I went back and added the ‘s’ to ‘slaughter’, without it it was ‘laughter’ – yikes.)
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Ha, okay, thank you for clarifying that. I was fairly wide-eyed at the laughter line.
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what happened to my post?
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Yes, I understand China has a poor human rights record. Nobody is arguing that we should invade every country that has a human rights problem. But you wouldn’t have supported an intervention to stop the slaughter of 6 million people?
Yes, we have very different perspectives.
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Yeah, and Obama (Barry Soetoro at Birth) Does AS he pleases, ignoring Congress and the Constitution. Our Countries broke, but Our Military industrial nations building team is on the move regardless. “Congress” is supposed to authorizing this, not Obama. And how can you say online polls aren’t correct? You can only vote once in most polls. Your TV is telling you he ranks low, not the internet. But both can be manipulated. Fine. The panoramic pictures on my FB page lets you “SEE” the people who support him. With 2 days notice we filled Union station with 2000 people to show support for Dr. Paul. I have panoramic shots from all over the country showing his huge following compared to thers. Believe YOUR EYES, not your ears. Pictures can’t lie.
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I would not have used government to intervene.
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Missouri is a caucus state. We won the popular vote at the caucus. We had more supporters than you. Rick Santorum supporters were the minority. If Rick Santorum supporters would have won the caucus that would have been unfair.
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Here we go again candlelight says: “My point is this, we live in a democratic republic” Get it straight please, we do not live an a democratic anything. We live in a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. We do not and we have never lived in a democratic anything. Please you anti-Paul people, do some homework before posting or voting or anything in the political arena. Winston Churchill said ~ ” the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter”. Unfortunately you anti-Paul people are proving his point. Do some homework, stop whining, follow the rules, remember things that may not be convenient for you to remember, like the fact that in Clay county the Santorum and Romney campaigns teamed up to keep Dr Paul’s delegates out. Once you do a little homework and start thinking like an adult, I’m sure you will agree with us and start working to fix our country. Doing things the way they have always been done is what got us into this mess. Changing the way we think and acting on logic and sound policies will fix a lot of our problems.
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Like Dr. Paul says. Get involved in your country. Or Ben Franklin when he said “It’s your republic, if you can keep it”.
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“When Tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” – James Madison
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I’d like to say, Thank you all for being politically motivated for the candidate of your choice. It encourages me to see people get involved. Unfortunately, I have this feeling that this election is more important than any other in history. So, as the Templar guarding the holy grail stated; “Choose wisely”.
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I agree. What we were given by the founders was a constitutional republic. And yes, When Benjamin Franklin was asked, “What kind of government have you given us?” he replied, “A republic if you can keep it.” Unfortunately, as clearly displayed on Saturday, we move closer and closer to democracy to the satisfaction of all you Ron Paul supporters. Thomas Jefferson said of Democracy, “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” That is what happened at the Jackson County caucus. It was not a republican method. It was the method of a mob. The only things missing were the pitchforks and torches.
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Wow, couldn’t disagree more with you Candle. I respect any candidates supporter, and hope for the same (which you blatently deny me) there was no Mob there on Saturday. I was outside, and missed the closing by a mere minute. My friend made it inside, she had never been to a caucus and enjoyed it. It’s interesting to see how some people behave after Dr. Paul just gets a win. I don’t feel like I’m in a cult. No one agrees with everything about another. And your bit about Democracy, It seems to me Obama doesn’t care what you, I or Congress thinks. He acts as a dictator. Ron Paul says Congress and the people rule. You have not chose wisely. good day.
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Len Snow, outside, you’re right. No mob. Friendly people. I was in line between some Paul supporters and some Romney supporters. All of us had identified which candidates we supported. My husband and I had a nice conversation with the Romney couple behind us. We also chatted with a few from the Paul crew in front of us. It is nice that you respect any supporters, but not all Paul supporters feel that way. One of the guys in line in front of us (a Paul supporter) continually made comments about Santorum and Santorum supporters until he was blue in the face. Most were outright lies (I have done my homework, including researching Paul, Romney, Gingrich, and others…and no, not by watching TV) that I’m guessing he made up on the spot. I respect anyone who can give respect to others. And I never said you were in a cult. I know some are saying that, but I did not.
But once the caucus had begun, mob rule was what took place. The Romney and Paul groups (as has been stated before) had planned it all out to TAKE AWAY THE VOICE of the Santorum supporters. They did it by cutting a deal (even though they don’t agree with one another), they did it by not allowing the 6th district to vote on their representatives for their convention, and they did it by quickly ending debates, calling the question, attempting to close nominations, and taking votes before all options were presented. This was wrong. I don’t care if it followed the “rules”, it was not right and honestly, I don’t know how people can feel good about themselves when they are taking away other people’s voices.
You’re right, Obama doesn’t care what any of us thinks. At least we can agree on that! He is not only the most liberal president we have had, but you’re right, he does act as a dictator. I’m not sure where you came up with the idea that I am supportive of him.
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I just rescued some comments from the spam bucket – WordPress has been doing that a lot, lately – not sure why it’s been so quirky.
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so, to be clear, Dr. Paul and his supporters that were at the caucus on Saturday had nothing to do with the caucus being unfair, as you describe it. Whoever made the rules that we prepared for (and that the Santorum camp tried to prepare for and lost in the deal-making attempt) is to blame for you feeling that the caucus was unfair. And the people that wanted to continue with the rules that were set forth long ago, simply wanted to get the thing over, and do what needed to be done, which was use the plan they implemented to get their candidate some delegates. You could call us also victims of circumstance. Had the rules been different, the strategy would have been different. But the rules were the rules. As Len Snow said, if Santorum would have won, it still would have been unfair. But I seriously doubt you would have seen it that way. They didn’t see it as unfair until it was obvious that they would lose. Sorry, your campaign tried to play the game, they tried hard, they fought hard, and the lady that proposed a proportional delegate allotment at the end, said that it had been a VERY FAIR caucus. She tried, and she lost, and she put her big girl britches on and kept some dignity. Bravo to her for that.
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You cross a line, however, that you accuse “paulbots” of crossing. You get jump on them when your snide provocations work and get a foolish, emotional response from them. You accuse them of fanaticism because they were eager to participate in a caucus and made the necessary sacrifices to learn the process and to be early. The language and tone you use is mocking and derogatory… and when people respond in the normal way – a gut emotional/frustrated response – you jump on them and try to label them as inferior and irrational.
How do I cross the line on my own blog? Should I ban myself?
Look, sorry – not sure if you’re new to the internet or just hyper sensitive, but there are a host of nicknames for candidates and/or their followers – and as I’ve said the mob-like, cultish, pack behavior of the Paul supporters have earned them a few apt nicknames (that are quite commonly used in the rightosphere.)
Ever call Romney “Mittens”? Or is that too dehumanizing and cruel for you, too?
I will have no problem voting for Mittens in the general if I must, but would have to use industrial strength clothes pins for Paul. I really do think he’s a mental case, but better than Obama, the malignant narcissist.
Also I’m not trying to snidely provoke anybody. They are just being who they are — a large number of Paul supporters are paranoid conspiracy theorists of the wackiest kind. Sorry. That’s not my fault.
As for the fanaticism. Yes – the Paulites have been displaying pack behavior at caucuses and nomination processes at GOP conventions across the country. Mainstream Republicans have been appalled by their behavior.
Here’s one anecdote from Maggie’s Notebook:
http://www.maggiesnotebook.com/2012/03/paulbots-taking-over-nomination-process-at-gop-conventions/
Yesterday I attended the Republican organizational convention for my Senate district here in Minnesota, and what I witnessed was an organized take-over of our nomination process by Ron Paul cultists. They came to this convention with the sole intent to take over as many of the delegate seats as they could, and sadly, they succeeded.
When I arrived at the convention and took my place with my fellow precinct delegates, I quickly noticed that something was awry. As soon as the man leading the convention(the Convention Chair) began to ask if there were any motions to bring to the floor, several Paulbots lept to their feet to make motions asking to “suspend” the rules so that people who were in attendance could add their names to the delegate nominations. Before the convention, delegates had been contacted to see if we were interested in running for the State Delegate positions, and we were given plenty of time to put our names in the hat to run for these positions.
The Paulbots, who did NOT submit their names prior to the convention, were now demanding that they should added to the list of nominees that very day. This is normally outside of the rules, but the Paulbots(there were at least 50 of them spread throughout the auditorium) through a suspension of the rules, demanded that they be added to the list of nominees. It was difficult to override their votes, as they had descended en masse to this event, and the unsuspecting non-Paul delegates were confused as to what was going on!
After some manipulative moves on the floor, and by using Roberts Rules of order AGAINST the Convention Chair, they were able to add all of their names to the delegate nominations.
I’ve never seen such unmitigated rudeness at a convention before. The Paulbots would leap to their feet screaming “Point of order!” every time they thought that the chair was being dismissive of them.
The entire process was chaotic and psychotic, and the non-Paul delegates were stunned. They didn’t understand what was happening, and I tried to explain to an elderly woman from my precinct that this entire coup was PLANNED, and that the Paulbots had every intention of flooding the State delegates with Paul supporters.
When I arrived at the convention and took my place with my fellow precinct delegates, I quickly noticed that something was awry. As soon as the man leading the convention(the Convention Chair) began to ask if there were any motions to bring to the floor, several Paulbots lept to their feet to make motions asking to “suspend” the rules so that people who were in attendance could add their names to the delegate nominations. Before the convention, delegates had been contacted to see if we were interested in running for the State Delegate positions, and we were given plenty of time to put our names in the hat to run for these positions.
The Paulbots, who did NOT submit their names prior to the convention, were now demanding that they should added to the list of nominees that very day. This is normally outside of the rules, but the Paulbots(there were at least 50 of them spread throughout the auditorium) through a suspension of the rules, demanded that they be added to the list of nominees. It was difficult to override their votes, as they had descended en masse to this event, and the unsuspecting non-Paul delegates were confused as to what was going on!
After some manipulative moves on the floor, and by using Roberts Rules of order AGAINST the Convention Chair, they were able to add all of their names to the delegate nominations.
I’ve never seen such unmitigated rudeness at a convention before. The Paulbots would leap to their feet screaming “Point of order!” every time they thought that the chair was being dismissive of them.
The entire process was chaotic and psychotic, and the non-Paul delegates were stunned. They didn’t understand what was happening, and I tried to explain to an elderly woman from my precinct that this entire coup was PLANNED, and that the Paulbots had every intention of flooding the State delegates with Paul supporters.
I’m seeing stories like this taking place all over America.
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Do you have a point, SirSamuel?
My point is the Caucus sucked because the result doesn’t represent the wishes of majority of GOP voters in the district. The debate is Caucus vs – Primary. I prefer primaries because caucuses invite chaos and pre-planned mob-like activity in the states that hold caucuses.
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please re-read the first sentence of my post. If you need further clarification, I’ll lay it out, the rules are the rules, you knew the rules (if you didn’t, that’s your fault). don’t whine because you lost. them’s my points.
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I’m not interested in the rules of the caucus. I wasn’t there on time to be a part of it! As I keep saying – as far as I know, the Caucus was run in a fair manner. Others who were there may disagree.
My point is that the caucus was a bad idea and obviously wrong for Missouri.
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Deb,
Very interesting discussion ending with your conclusion that the caucus system is “Bad”.
Really, because you lost? What we saw was exactly what the founders envisioned. A group of passionate and INFORMED people getting together to put forth a candidate that represents them. The founders never envisioned a system where EVERYONE would vote. ( Really, think about it, what percentage of people have a single INFORMED opinion about the candidate or issue that they are voting for? ). The primary system is the real problem, people with zero “skin in the game” go in and pull a lever for a party candidate – heck they don’t even have to prove in any way that they are a Republication. The primaries across the country are being polluted by outsiders to the “party”.
Sorry your guy did not win.
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Really, because you lost?
No, because the fringe candidate won. As I’ve repeatedly said, the Caucus system doesn’t represent the majority of Republican voters in the district.
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And your argument is – that the “beauty pageant” primary with very low turnout and no requirement of Party affiliation DOES represent the Republicans?? I find it interesting that you keep saying “fringe”. Really? I drive around my suburban KC town and see a TON of Ron Paul signs, virtually NO Romney, Santorum, or Gingrich. Fringe – by your standards. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy your site and you opinions when not connected to a certain candidate, but if you would step back and read your own site eliminating all references to Paul, you would be a Ron Paul fan site. You continue to criticize Paul foreign policy like a Democrat from their talking points. Please tell us how you guy Santorum, is so RIGHT when it comes to foreign policy? Because his domestic big government spending record is nothing to celebrate. You keep saying that Paul is SO wrong – I suggest that you read a very good book that I am reading now called “The Black Banners” by CIA man that was the expert on Bin Laden. It will show you that Paul is right. That our occupation of these countries is being used as fuel to fan the basically ignorant (Not Educated) population to support extremists, if we just got out and ignored these lunatics, their power over the population would be greatly diminished.
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Sorry – posted from another computer, this was from me.
And your argument is – that the “beauty pageant” primary with very low turnout and no requirement of Party affiliation DOES represent the Republicans?? I find it interesting that you keep saying “fringe”. Really? I drive around my suburban KC town and see a TON of Ron Paul signs, virtually NO Romney, Santorum, or Gingrich. Fringe – by your standards. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy your site and you opinions when not connected to a certain candidate, but if you would step back and read your own site eliminating all references to Paul, you would be a Ron Paul fan site. You continue to criticize Paul foreign policy like a Democrat from their talking points. Please tell us how you guy Santorum, is so RIGHT when it comes to foreign policy? Because his domestic big government spending record is nothing to celebrate. You keep saying that Paul is SO wrong – I suggest that you read a very good book that I am reading now called “The Black Banners” by CIA man that was the expert on Bin Laden. It will show you that Paul is right. That our occupation of these countries is being used as fuel to fan the basically ignorant (Not Educated) population to support extremists, if we just got out and ignored these lunatics, their power over the population would be greatly diminished.
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I really want to ask of the Ron Paul “unsupporters” like yourself. What do you want from a hypothetical Ron Paul president that you would not get?
Repeal ObamaCare? Check
Massive reduction in Federal intrusion into our lives (regulations, Government spending etc. ) Check
Pro Life from a FEDERAL point of view, this is a State issue. Check ( I am sure that Missouri would be a pro life State if put to a vote)
Pro 2nd Amendment and all Constitutional issues. Check
What more do you want? Continued massive occupation of countries that hate us? When has that worked in history?
I just am trying to wrap my head around “Republicans”
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Why do people keep trying to tell me what my argument is? That’s so weird. No, I’m talking about a Missouri primary like we’ve always had – not the one that didn’t count.
Continued massive occupation of countries that hate us? When has that worked in history?
Gosh, I don’t know, why don’t you ask the South Koreans that question.
I mean – why don’t we just let Communists and Islamists take over every country until we’re the only beacon of freedom left. Why even gave a military?
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Why do people keep trying to tell me what my argument is? That’s so weird.
What is your argument? That the caucus was bad?
No, I’m talking about a Missouri primary like we’ve always had – not the one that didn’t count.
Most people did not even know that it didn’t count, heck Santorum sure campaigned here right before, as if it did.
Continued massive occupation of countries that hate us? When has that worked in history?
Gosh, I don’t know, why don’t you ask the South Koreans that question.
I have and the South Koreans are glad that we are there, as a free protection service from their aggressor. North Korea is no real threat to us. Plus we contribute to their economy, now how we got there is another story.
I mean – why don’t we just let Communists and Islamists take over every country until we’re the only beacon of freedom left. Why even gave a military?
Because those Communists and Islamists WILL SELF-destruct. They always have and always will. Our Capitalism will always crush them in the real world like is has for that last 200 years. Why are China and Russia etc. pursuing some level of Capitalism? Our military should be there as a deterrent to THEIR aggression against us.
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